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Mar 29 09 12:49 AM

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Wants to lower corporate taxes.

Why, I am just completely and utterly SHOCKED!

And, yet, people still think he's a Democrat.

Maybe those who talk about him being a sleeper neo-con are right on the money......

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Silver Monarch

Posts: 4,694

#1 [url]

Mar 29 09 11:23 PM

Actually, MtLouie, he is right on this one in my view. The current top corporate tax rate is near 40% and this is one of the main reasons many corporations are literally forced to go overseas. Here in California they are hit with an additional 10% rate. Then there are health care costs for employees, workmens comp. etc. etc. It's hard to do business under those conditions. Yes, the conglomerates get a lot of tax breaks, but the conglomerates are a minority. The bulk of corporations make less than a million a year in profits. That said, what DOES need to be raised are the INDIVIDUAL INCOME TAXES on the top 1-10% of the wealthiest in the country. If they want their big tax breaks, they should be FORCED to start/invest in companies  that create jobs or build necessary infrastructure/social services.Bottom line, this country CLEARLY does not have its TAX POLICY priorities in order.

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#2 [url]

Mar 30 09 12:00 AM

corporations are literally forced to go overseas
Pardon me, eric.....but my ass.

"FORCED"  No, they go overseas because they don't give a fucking shit that they are destroying the only planet we have, and other countries are so willing to suck their dicks that they let them destroy their water, their water tables, their only viable agricultural ground, their people, their children, and everything else.

I don't know how you don't know this, but at one point in American history the people got fucking FED UP with working like dogs for not enough money to live on, dying on the job, having rivers that could be SET ON FIRE, watching the natural world be torn to shreds, and STILL HAVING CORPORATIONS BE RICHER THAN GOD.

You know, eric, again I say:  you really need to stop watching and listening to that right-wing garbage.

Actually, the corporations pay  ZERO in taxes.  Hell, now they are GETTING PAID.  So what that little headline was, was all propaganda anyway.

And we don't (read: CAN'T) build anything anyway.  You will remember that we all came from a peak oil forum, yes? 

And, OH MY GOD, there are HEALTH CARE COSTS, and WORKMAN'S COMP????!!!!  You mean those cock-sucking motherfuckers actually ought to give a shit that the people whom they make their billions off the backs of should actually have HEALTH CARE????!!!  Or if they get hurt on the job they ought to be able to make their house payments???!!!!


Honestly, sometimes I could just cry.  I really could.  There are just enough people left in the world who think the cocksucking corporations ought to get a break that, if this thing continues (god forbid), we don't ever have to worry about anything changing.

The people of Greece are, per usual, going after the wrong thing.  Oh, well.

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#3 [url]

Mar 30 09 12:13 AM

And, darlin', I'm really not railing on you, personally.  I'm not.  I just think corporations are evil.  And you know they are.  They are what has transpired out of the mess of figuring out how to get the most out of a barrell of oil.

They don't know when to stop.  They don't know when to say, "If we go any farther, we're going to destroy everything."  They don't stop, because all they can think about is the almight dollar, or yen, or euro, or whatever.

Or, as the black book says, "The LOVE of money is the root of all evil."

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Silver Monarch

Posts: 4,694

#4 [url]

Mar 30 09 10:56 PM

MtLouie, I can understand your frustrations with the capitlastic system, but your remarks are way over the top(100% emotion and 0% logic). If the government here took 50+% of your income in taxes and incurred additional costs on you, would you continue to live/work here? Most people wouldn't. It's simple economics. 
And again, are ALL corporations evil?. Clearly not. Most are not the size of the big conglomerates as I previously stated. Corporations are simply GROUPS OF PEOPLE working towards a COMMON goal. A corporation is simply a legal construction to permit them to do this. If the people working within a corporation are evil, then it will manifest itself. If good, the same will hold true. 
And money makes our modern society work, for better and worse. I'm not about to throw the baby out with the bathwater. 

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#5 [url]

Mar 31 09 12:29 AM

The elimination of tariffs for "globalization" has made it possible for "American" companies to produce goods overseas, and sell them here, at a greater profit.

Taxes (aside from levied duties on imported goods) were paid entirely by corporations a century ago, Eric.

Citizens paid NO federal taxes on wages.

Your defense of corporations is puzzling, eric. A corporation doesn't go to jail if it does wrong. It is a legal entity that is not accountable or culpable under the "rule of law". It's members are protected, in large part, from prosecution for misdeeds done on behalf of the "corporation".

If laws involving securities, stocks, and "insider trading" are violated, a prosecution might be handed out. Make no mistake, eric, these are handed out to maintain "faith in the system" and it's regulators.

Please name a "good" corporation for us Eric. I need to test your theory.

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Illustrious Alchemist

Posts: 792

#6 [url]

Mar 31 09 12:30 AM

one of the only ways to tax fairly is to charge a sails tax only, one that is flat rate with no exceptions,
you have to drop all other taxes. (and this is critical, no income no land tax, no any other tax)
that way large corporations have nothing to file and no one to pay off to drop there tax rate, they will pay when they buy things like all of us do.
as it is now small corporations have a choice to move over seas, or to go out of business,
but with no tariffs and forcing small companies to pay the entire tax load that is what will happen.

the corruption of large companies is way beyond just ending the tax loopholes that let them pay no taxes,
they already own the government and that will be very hard to change with how people keep voting.

likely the companies are telling us that they don't pay tax in order to make us upset so that we can't think clearly about it, and that means that enough people will vote to raise taxes and that is what they want (drives out the small companies).
they are playing a manipulation game with the public and are winning so far with no hope of change in sight.

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#8 [url]

Mar 31 09 12:46 AM

I'll check your link later, spacecase.

A century ago, individuals had zero Federal taxes, and the States weren't funded by Washington as they are now.

How is having individuals continue to shoulder the lions share of taxes, via a sales tax, "Fair"?

excerpt about SFBG, From Wiki.

1970s unionization attempt

The Guardian put down an attempt by its employees to unionize in the 1970s. In 1975, Guardian staffers, with the aid of Newspaper Guild Local 52 and International Typographical Union Local 21, signed union cards to seek higher wages and benefits. The paper had previously won a legal settlement and moved to a new building. Nevertheless, publisher Bruce Brugmann claimed there were not enough funds to increase pay or benefits. The day after Thanksgiving, he fired five senior staffers who had helped organize the union effort. Newspaper staffers voted to join the Newspaper Guild and, on June 15, 1976, they called a strike to force Brugmann to offer a labor contract. Brugmann retained a few management staff and hired scab replacements. In August, César Chávez offered to mediate the strike, but Brugmann refused. Finally, in 1977, another election was called, but this time votes by replacement workers carried the day and the new staff voted not to join a union.[2]


Just another hard-workin' capitalist, getting the message out to the people, I see.

I really want Eric to answer my "good corporation" query. His entire argument hinges on it.

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Tin Warrior

Posts: 212

#9 [url]

Mar 31 09 1:02 AM

The biggest problem with corporations is that they have all the privileges of being "a person" and none of the responsibility or accountability of being a "person." The fastest way to stop the egregious harm being done to the planet and people is to reverse that: make corporations accountable for the harm they are doing and give them none of the perks of being a person.

I own a corporation. It's called "Twowings,Inc." and I used to sell my books out of it. I'm an individual person and the corporation is owned by only one person - me. It isn't the very simple reality of being a corporation that is evil. It is the evil bastards that are psychopathic and use corporations to rape the planet and rob the people. When a corporation can be transnational, it also has not a shred of loyalty toward the country of its origin, and that is where another evil enters in: corporations that owe no allegiance to any government because they are based out of multiple govt. entities.

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#10 [url]

Mar 31 09 1:26 AM

Some could say allegiance to governments is harming the Planet,  just as much as corporations are.

The problem is Non-locality. If you own a coal mine (or a share of it) you should live on the property or nearby.

Fracking? OK, you live next to it and draw a well from next to it.

Paper mill? OK you gotta live where the trees were cut.

The world was like this before limited liability common stock was invented. It's been downhill since.

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#11 [url]

Mar 31 09 2:34 AM

MtLouie, I can understand your frustrations with the capitlastic system, but your remarks are way over the top(100% emotion and 0% logic). If the government here took 50+% of your income in taxes and incurred additional costs on you, would you continue to live/work here? Most people wouldn't. It's simple economics. 
And again, are ALL corporations evil?. Clearly not. Most are not the size of the big conglomerates as I previously stated. Corporations are simply GROUPS OF PEOPLE working towards a COMMON goal. A corporation is simply a legal construction to permit them to do this. If the people working within a corporation are evil, then it will manifest itself. If good, the same will hold true. 
And money makes our modern society work, for better and worse. I'm not about to throw the baby out with the bathwater. 


Well, I think you're talking semantics now. 

No, of course an LLC is not an INC.  Not by a long shot.  Just another way the propaganda was used to make the little guy think he was going to be rich, RICH, RICH!

My ex was an LLC.  Multi-millionaire, as I've said.  He got screwed over by the chains coming to town in two of his LLCs.  Barnes and Noble and  chain furniture/appliance stores.

If you are trying to pretend that the little guy corporation is somehow leaving the U.S. because of the egregious laws.......UM, HELLO?!  No, they aren't because they are really just mom-and-pop stores and small (very small) manufacturing.

When companies start leaving the U.S.?  We're talking big corporations and bigger corporations.  That system was set up for them and only for them.

I remember when my ex and I first met, he was still flying high, and had been since his early 30s.  And he loved Reagan and he even loved Clinton, because (like Obama) he mouthed "left-wing" stuff on the teevee and his voting record was straight-up Republican.

Now, my ex thought when Rush Limbaugh and those yahoos talked about the business owner he was talking to him.  But he wasn't.  And I tried to tell him that.

Did you know that over 50% of formerly secure small businesses have gone bankrupt since the mid-80s?  And most of the rest are only now hanging on because the government is bailing them out.  I can name a half-dozen just in our little town alone.

Now, of course, there are the folks who listen to the right-wing yappers and "started their own business."  I'm not talking about them.  I'm talking about straight-up solid middle-class business owners that provided the bulk of the jobs in America at one time.

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#13 [url]

Mar 31 09 2:38 AM

Oh, and not only did that bargaining for low, low prices put the small business owner out of work, but it also bankrupted a LOT of formerly soild manufacturing companies.  Or they were bought out by other conglomorates and their company was gutted and the business went overseas so the new owner could pay slave wages to third world workers.

HEY!  Did you hear the news story this week about the THOUSANDS of farm workers dying in Central America and South America?

It's corporations using all kinds of chemicals they don't have to worry about laws for.  They are, literally, dying by the THOUSANDS.  Their kidneys are failing.

Look it up.  AP story.

Nice, nice, nice corporations.  They are so wonderful.  Poor things that they have to leave America and Europe because of our horrible, horrible laws.  Such a shame.

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#14 [url]

Mar 31 09 2:40 AM

 If the government here took 50+%

eric, goddamn it!  They DO NOT take 50% of their income.  For crying out loud.  Look it up.

The EMEFFERS are GETTING PAID!!!!!  The tax payer is supporting them.

I can't believe you have been on this forum and LATOC for so long, and have read all the stuff people have put up, and you still listen to that right-wing crap and believe it.

And I know you are, like most of us here, not well-to-do.  Brother, they don't care about you!

They don't care about the small business owner, and you and I mean even less than that to them.

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Silver Monarch

Posts: 1,812

#15 [url]

Mar 31 09 3:53 AM

TPTB are setting Obama up to be reelected. He's been an obedient puppet, and he acts like one of the few adults in Washington. If Santorum is the GOP nominee, it will be like LBJ vs Goldwater in 1964 again.

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Silver Monarch

Posts: 10,241

#16 [url]

Mar 31 09 4:33 AM

The last 30 years of globalization and worshipping at the altar of the "free market" has been about one thing - the means by which TheParasitesThatBe are "harvesting" the ENTIRE PLANET.  It has never been about anything but monopolizing the wealth and resources to the enrichment of a relative few and the increasing impoverishment and enslavement of everyone else. 

Check out most of the "leaders" around the world the last 30 years.  Most of them are traitors to their own countries while they enrich themselves.   They were never there for their people, their countries - they were put there by Big Money.   The world is being run by a kind of Mafia.  The more power is centralised, the more powerful THEY become - that's what globalization was about - the centralization of power.

When I was growing up my father was just a manual worker on a pretty low wage but my parents had NO problem paying a mortgage.    Back then they used to be 20 year mortgages.  Now the standard is 30 year mortgages and you really need two people working to service the mortgage and meet the cost of living.   Women were EXPECTED to stay home because running a house, being a wife and raising children was considered a full time job - and guess what?  IT IS!    Feminism brought some much-needed changes but the idea that women should be "free to work" came out of the heads of bored, urban,  middle upper-class women lying around on chaise lounges.   My older female relatives did nothing BUT work.    They would have actually liked - I think - to have STOPPED working.    How many times did I hear them say, "A woman's work is never done".

But traditional "women's work" - raising children, cooking healthy meals, helping sick neighbours and relatives, preserving food, washing and mending, keeping house, running or helping run a farm, sewing, crafts, running or helping run businesses......was suddenly deemed "unworthy".  Women were stigmatised because they were "only housewives".  How many times did you hear a woman say apologetically that she was "only a housewife"?     To be "valid" one suddenly had to join the "paid workforce", act like a man  and very often give even your babies over to strangers to raise.    And now gee, if you're one of these "lucky, liberated" woman you too can devote your working hours to slaving away to pay off the thirty year mortgage and put enough microwave dinners on the table because god knows by the time you arrive home exhausted from working for the machine  to finally see your children for an hour, the last thing you likely feel like doing is cooking a healthy meal.

Where am I going with this?   When they got all the wives and mothers out of the home, where they were working for themselves, their husbands and their children, the corporations sure got a whole lot of new wage slaves didn't they?  And where did/where does, most of the wages of those slaves go?  Oh yes, to the BANKS to service the 30 year mortgage. 

Not only that but the exhausted working mothers of today don't even know HOW to cook real food any more so they buy their food from the - tada! - corporations.    Or the fast food joints.  Or restaurants.    Grow and preserve their own food?  Once upon a time EVERY family did that, even families in cities on a quarter of an acre.   They all had small orchards and grew all their own flowers, vegetables and herbs.    Most of them also kept hens for the eggs and raised a few chickens.  That was at a MINIMUM.   Small houses, big sections/plots of land.  Not now. Enormous houses with giant mortages on pocket handkerchief sizes of land, not enough room to swing a cat as they say.

But don't worry, all your pesticide, aspartame, MSG, colouring, flavouring etc riddled "food" is waiting for you at the supermarket, courtesy of the corporations.

Vegetable gardening is another lost-art amongst most of the young.  Even today's young farmers tend to only know monoculture and industrial styles of farming.

All of these kinds of things people used to do for THEMSELVES - rear children, grow food, preserve food, bake, fish, sew, carve, repair their own mechanical vehicles - have been increasingly lost to The Machine and certainly one of the major drivers of The Machine is multi-national corporations whose God is Mammom, pure and simple.    Make the most money, give the least value, sacrifice and suck the life out of everything which was once good, even families and children.   Even sex, which used to be somewhat mysterious, sacred and special, is now just another commodity for sale.   Young men can get their "sex" from the mountains of pornography on the Internet. Everything has a price-tag, nothing is sacred. 

And they wonder why the youth of today are so cynical.

Are men better off today?  Are women better off today?  Are children better off today?   Generally I think, no.

And my point here is NOT that women shouldn't be able to be in paid employment if they want to (that's a no brainer)  but how SAD it is that not that many years ago parents had the CHOICE of ONE parent being able to stay home and now most parents don't.    And who benefits the most from having both parents in the paid workforce?    From what I've seen it's not the parents and it's certainly not the children.  It's the banks and the corporations. 

Honest to God, I think a lot of those "feminists" were actually the enemies of women, but don't mind me - I''ve just been irate for years that they suggested my hardworking grandmothers should be "free to work" - and I consider the "work" my grandmothers did was far more special and important than being a wage slave in a factory assembly line making goods which will be in land-fills within 3 years.

Smile, breathe and go slowly.’ ~Thich Nhat Hanh

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#17 [url]

Mar 31 09 4:52 AM

OH, AMEN SISTER!!  You have written (and beautifully, i might add) "my" rant--i've given this little diatribe to anyone who would listen for the past 20 years.  Yes, yes, and oh, hail yes!

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Silver Monarch

Posts: 2,548

#18 [url]

Mar 31 09 5:11 AM

Yeah no shit ..right on Em. Thank you. (not to jump on the bandwagon or anything ..just say'n)

I am one of the ones 'lucky' enough to get to stay home with my kids. However I battle against that "your JUST a house wife" crap every single day.

I never see my husband getting told he is JUST the money maker ..JUST the bread winner.

I always kid my hubby saying ..When he shits a whole watermelon out his ass and smiles afterward ..then he can wear the pants in the family........Hehehe

Well aren't you just a fun little lollipop triple dipped in psycho......

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Silver Monarch

Posts: 2,548

#19 [url]

Mar 31 09 5:22 AM

Oh wanted to add ..This is another reason I cannot see the whole world suddenly ..working together as ONE.

Ya know what I mean? My wants and needs and desires are totally different than someone elses. My thinking on what is ruining America/planet ..Hell even how it is being ruined completely differes from someone elses.

So how the hell do you begin to tackle the fact that ..some people think this is good or bad ..and no- better eduacation is not the answer. Just look at this thread to see what I mean.

I dont think anyone on here is stupid or slow yet very differing views and ideas from alot of people.

And we are supposed to just drop everything and become ONE ..yeah okay.

Well aren't you just a fun little lollipop triple dipped in psycho......

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#20 [url]

Mar 31 09 12:37 PM

I agree momma.  It seems hopeless.  That's why I keep saying whatever happens is going to have to be miraculous.
Now, having said everything I've boss is all gung-ho on the guy that runs Vanguard.  Any of you business types know anything about him?
She says Wall Stree hates him, that he only takes a $250,000 salary.  And no perks of any kind.  Says there isn't anyone in the world that needs to earn more than that, and that's more than enough to live on.
I don't know anything about him, and I just started talking to her about all this stuff.  She and I see eye-to-eye on a lot, she's brilliant, and I'm trying to figure out where she's coming from.
she's a semi-doomer.  worked at Hanford (nuclear plant, for all you furriners) as one of their scientists, and ended up hating nuclear power. 
Anyway, I'm kind of curious about this Vanguard guy.  What do you know periol, tlr, roc, eric?

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